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User talk:Vexations/Archive 23

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Hi I’d appreciate some advice please. I’m reviewing List of departments of the Republic of the Congo by Human Development Index. The stats on their own seem to me to fall foul of WP:NOTSTATS. However the article creator has added a second column comparing each department to another country. Neither source supports this so it seems to me fall foul of WP:OR. As a result I’m leaning towards thinking we should not keep this page. However I see that the creator also created List of administrative divisions of Myanmar by Human Development Index which you reviewed and passed. You obviously judged this very differently to me so I’d appreciate some pointers on this so I can be better a reviewing in future. Many thanks Mccapra (talk) 16:20, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Mccapra, you make an excellent observation. I agree. I was wrong to mark a large number of these articles as reviewed without noting the original research. This was sometime around September 2018, I think. I'll have to go back and review what I did. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Vexations (talk) 14:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Ok thanks for your reply that’s helpful to know. I’ll think on it again before deciding what to do. All the best Mccapra (talk) 14:58, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Mccapra, I remember trying to talk to the editor now. This is someone who, in 2018, insisted that the projected birthrates for List_of_countries_by_number_of_births could be given for the period 2015–2020 in an article called "List of countries by number of births". It just didn't make any sense. It should have been "List of countries by projected number of births". I asked how he arrived at those numbers, but didn't pursue it further. Diff is here{ [1] The real numbers (for 2015–12018) are here:
I should have nominated those pages for deletion. Vexations (talk) 20:57, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you for your help and advice with the Dean article! I am new to Wikipedia and trying to clean up and add to a bunch of contemporary arts article, so any advice is very helpful. Let me know if you ever need a hand with the list of Duchamp pieces you are working on, I am a native French speaker and quite knowledgeable on the subject. Best, André AndréFréderique82 (talk) 22:19, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the offer, AndréFréderique82. I had hoped we could add some more material about Dean's work. There are plenty of sources to work with, I think. As for MD, I was hoping to put together something about the Boîte-en-valise and see if it possible to write something about all the works in it. Not making much progress, I must confess, Vexations (talk) 12:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
I'll try to add more material to Dean ASAP. I also made a page for Commonwealth and Council, I was quite surprised to find that they didn't have one yet- I saw that you had a draft for it, let me know your thoughts! Happy to help with the Boîte-en-Valise. AndréFréderique82 (talk) 17:03, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
AndréFréderique82 The notability requirements for galleries are so strict WP:NORG that it is almost impossible to find the kind of sourcing that is required. We've had very extensive discussions about this and the consensus that emerged is that the editing community has no appetite for loosening those requirements. Note that many articles about businesses are basically advertisements created by undisclosed paid editors. It's an endless battle against spam, so the lack of enthusiasm for making exceptions is completely understandable. On the other hand, I think that art galleries are an aspect of the artworld that is of encyclopedic interest. When you can, please add sources to those "x is represented by y" that show that the relationship between a gallery and an artist goes beyond that of a retail establishment and producer of fungible goods. In the case of Commonwealth and Council there's a nice story. Vexations (talk) 17:23, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Oh I see, that makes sense in order to avoid millions small commercial spaces write their own PR on wikipedia, thanks for the heads up and the advice. I'll keep in mind to highlight the ways in which some gallery spaces serve as more than just a retail space, and to only focus on places with extensive independent coverage. I agree that galleries are of encyclopedic interest, and I am surprised how little coverage some of them seem to have gotten: for instance the page for Hauser&Wirth seems strikingly sparse relative to its importance in the commercial/institutional art world, and a lot of artist-run spaces who have received very extensive coverage or academic attention seem altogether missing. AndréFréderique82 (talk) 18:11, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
(talk page watcher) Re Commonwealth and Council, I dropped by there and added several good sources, so I think it is safe. Nice addition AndréFréderique82!ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:27, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #13

14:29, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

lList of works by ...

You called my attention to your User:Vexations/lists/List of works by Bernardo Strozzi, prepared automatically rom Wikidata, in connection with DilletantiAnonymous's List of paintings by Bernardo Strozzi,and I observe also various overlapping cateogries in Common nd WP. s. The information in these is complementary, or at least the ways of sorting them are, and I imagine this is a general problem. Presumably twenty or thirty years from now enWPwillhave actualarticles with substantial information and references on all of the, but what can in the meantime be done to make this sort of work more useful. I'm not going to get involved in this further, not because of lack of itnerest but because of other activities here, but I'm notifying Pharos. DGG ( talk ) 00:34, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Cesar Catina

FYI. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 22:30, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

ThatMontrealIP, oh yeah, I remember seeing that one. An unparalleled universal genius. Peerless. Vexations (talk) 23:07, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

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It looks like you did not finish the nomination. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Artistic scandal. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Staszek Lem, thanks, I'll (try to) fix it. Automated tools, ugh. Vexations (talk) 18:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Please reconsider whether the article may be simply renamed into List of artistic scandals (and cleaned of OR) instead of AFD. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:32, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Staszek Lem, I've been mulling over this one for a couple of days. I suppose it could be renamed to List of infamous paintings or something like that. But even then, there is no category that corresponds to it and the topic is impossible to delineate. Vexations (talk) 19:43, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


I see from this afd that a certain editor is getting you every bit as irritated as he has already gotten me. Suggestions welcome. I don't think WP ought to lose him, but ... . DGG ( talk ) 04:46, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

DGG, I don't want to deny anyone who means well the simple pleasure of adding articles about paintings. That's about the most harmless hobby I can think of. The problem is that they create a lot of work for other people, of which they blissfully unaware or in denial.
Of course one could argue that no one compels me to fix their entries. And to be honest, I LIKE fixing entries and adding citations. That's my harmless hobby. I'm frustrated by what appears to me to be their unwillingness to change how they edit, despite an abundance of feedback from other editors. The disregard for sourcing, their failure to properly attribute the origin of a translation, will eventually make the community decide that WP:NOTCOMPATIBLE applies. Vexations (talk) 10:21, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
Exactly.I've tried every argument I can think of so far but your response suggests a slight variation, so I will try it. DGG ( talk ) 01:22, 10 June 2020 (UTC)


Hello! How does that Python script for finding all the refs ever used in an article work? Is it local to your computer and then it queries the Wikipedia API? I have always been curious about using the API for certain tasks, but have been too lazy to look it up. So, local or server based, how do you code it, and so on? Thanks in advance. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 22:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

ThatMontrealIP, It's a local python script. I import Beautifulsoup, urllib and httplib. The script takes the title of the article as an argument. Then I make a request with urllib.request.Request and get the html. Then I use Beautifulsoup to find all the links with the class external. Where it gets fun is that I can pipe its output into other programs that look up the sources in a JSON database of (un)reliable sources or simply pipe it into xargs open, so I can open all the online references with one click. Vexations (talk) 12:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Vexations, thank you for taking the time to explain this. You know, I have worked for decades with many complex technological processes that go down to the bit and microampere level, but it never fails that I get entirely confused and befuddled when a process requires me to compile something on the command line or it needs dot syntax or it involves hierarchies of libraries... I'm writing that like I sound like I know what they are, but they really remain opaque to me. But thank you for trying to explain it!ThatMontrealIP (talk) 15:44, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
ThatMontrealIP, I've had another request for the code, so I'll just post it online. I'll need a few minutes to clean it up, and then I'll let you know where you can find it. Vexations (talk) 16:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 10

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Sandra Brewster, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Thicker than Water (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

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About deletion of Paju Typography Institute

Hi! I just read your message about the deletion of Paju Typography Institute, and I was not available to check what problems had to improve it. It took time to find references in English about this Institute created by Ahn Sang-soo, and I hoped Korean speakers could improved later. I will not create it again, it will be a waste of time. Have a good day. Editive (talk) 14:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

New Page Reviewer newsletter June 2020

Hello Vexations,

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In late February, Google added 5 new languages to Google Translate: Kinyarwanda, Odia (Oriya), Tatar, Turkmen and Uyghur. This expands our ability to find and evaluate sources in those languages.

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Flawed But Oh Well!

Per your edit summary here you don’t need to take “bold” actions if you are unsure of the outcome. Yes! you can definitely CSD an article that is already in an AFD. If it doth fits the criteria listed there. An analogy would be perharps if a banned or blocked user creates an article & that article is nominated for deletion, rather than waste community effort you may just tag with a G5 regardless of the fact that the said article is currently in an AFD & this applies to copyvio’s, attack pages & very blatant promotional articles. Now you understand I’d expect you’d be putting that into consideration before proceeding to take “bold actions”. Thank you for your time. Celestina007 (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Celestina007, well, you are correct per Wikipedia:Deletion_policy: "Pages currently on proposed deletion or deletion discussion (see below) may be deleted through speedy deletion." But it also says: "Anyone except a page's creator may contest the speedy deletion of a page by removing the deletion notice from the page." If I thought it was unambiguously G11 I would have nominated it as such. I think some feedback from Persian speakers would be welcome. Vexations (talk) 20:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Vexations, yes you are correct. But your edit summary implied since it was already at an AFD a speedy delete wasn’t applicable this was an invalid argumend & a very inaccurate rationale if you had just declined the G11 & your edit summary read “this isn’t so promotional” I would have understood. But its good we both understand ourselves. Celestina007 (talk) 20:43, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Celestina007, thanks, and yes I should have explained myself better and provided a valid/better rationale: It had already passed AfC, so Rich Smith must have thought it would survive an AfD. Perhaps you both want to contribute to the AfD and provide your perspective, that would be appreciated. Vexations (talk) 20:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Sounds fair. Celestina007 (talk) 21:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Vexations and Celestina007, I've already posted on the AfD page but this was totally my fault. I took the Persian sources at face value, not being able to read Persian and totally missed the YouTube, the very obvious self-references etc. Thanks for bring it up. I'm not going to go anywhere near anything with non-English sources from now on - RichT|C|E-Mail 00:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Brando Chiesa

Sir, Thank you for giving time on Brando Chiesa page. Sir, I know you have 16+ years of experience in Wikipedia or I am here a newborn editor, so sir, your help always needed. Sir, Cheek this link Brando Chiesa News Link via google. I think me added all verifiable source in the article. sir humble request to you please remove the deletion tag or improve the article thank you. (IndiaBulez (talk) 06:39, 25 June 2020 (UTC))

IndiaBulez, I will not withdraw the nomination. For instructions on how to participate in the discussion, see WP:DISCUSSAFD. One thing; you have a userbox that says you are able to to contribute with a professional level of English. Having read some of your contributions, I am confident that your English is basic or intermediate at best. However, if you are using English professionally (i.e. you're getting paid) when contributing to Wikipedia then you have to disclose that per WP:PAID. Vexations (talk) 11:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
@Vexations Sir, I extremely sorry to say that, I'm not an English professional contributor. please, sir, suggest me how to me improved the article IndiaBulez (talk) 16:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
IndiaBulez, In my opinion, based on an extensive review of the available sources, per WP:BEFORE, the subject is not notable. No amount of fixing the article will remedy that. Vexations (talk) 16:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
@Vexations Right Sir, the subject is not notable, actually I'm a tattoo lover so I searched now the top 10 tattoo artist in the world , then I found his name his works are very beautiful then I try to make a wiki page for the tattoo artist name. thank you so much, sir, giving for information.if possible you can try it to improve. IndiaBulez (talk) 16:39, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Afghan Box Camera

Hi Vexations I created an entry titled Afghan Box Camera that was now finally erased / merged with Street Box Camera. Sadly I was trying to clarify the differences between the two. The current Street Box Camera is a complete mess and historically absolutely incorrect, lacks any structure as it referees to a global photographic phenomenon but picks mini bits from different countries. I have conducted interviews with the leading experts in the field in Europe, Asia and Latin America for my master degree. The Streets Box Camera is a mix of completely unstructured and inaccurate entries. I tried to created first the Afghan Box Camera page as there is clear information available by Lukas Birk and Sean Foley two researchers who's profile I am also editing as they have done extensive historical work. After that I want to clean up the Street Box Camera entry - even the term is actually not correct and add information on different areas of Box Camera photography around the world with all its names. After that I would like to Create another entry called Minuteros as the Box Camera photography in the Spanish speaking world is enormous and deserves its own category, with references in books, online etc. There is huge amount of work and research involved in this, and the first step has basically been erased right now and what is left is the rather mixed entry "Street Box Camera". Minuteros already exists on Spanish Wiki as separate entry. I am new to wikipedia and creating entries so I tried to follow all the rules. My major is photographic history and I focus on several areas of photography that have been left in the margins and only a few people have worked on it. I don't know if this erasing and merging of Afghan Box Camera entry can be reversed by you - it is just a shame that there was a lot of absolutely accurate information on this type of photography in wiki. I also just saw that my first biographical profile of Lukas Birk is place in doubts. I have conducted several interviews with Birk for my research. I dont know how else to references a living person. I have done as much referencing and research a possible. Ok, thanks and please re-consider. best Photographichistory (talk) 09:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Photographichistory, thanks for clarifying that. Let me see what I can do. Vexations (talk) 13:23, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Photographichistory, well, it's a bit of a mess now. Let's see if we can untangle it. The place to have this discussion would be at Street box camera. First of all, the content Afghan Box Camera of is not completely gone, it's retained in the history, see Afghan Box Camera on14:41, 21 June 2020.
I suggested a merge, not a move or redirect, so that content would be retained. See diff [2]. That proposal didn't find consensus. I think you could make a proposal similar to the one you made above at Talk:Street box camera. The best thing to do would be to make a list of the best available sources and summarize what they have to say on nomenclature so that you can propose a title for the main topic and identify which subtopics need to be identified separately. A taxonomy, if you will. It is important to note Wikipedia's policy of using common names, WP:COMMONNAME. All the best, Vexations (talk) 15:30, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Vexations for this information. I will now work on fixing the Street Box Camera entry with proper taxation including Afghan Box Camera, Minuteros etc and suggest a general title change once this is done. Photographichistory (talk) 07:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC):Photographichistory

David Zwirner Gallery

Hi Vexations, I added information to David Zwirner Gallery's page and included the fact that it was the first gallery to launch an online viewing room (a digital platform for online exhibitions). It was definitely not the first gallery to launch a website, which would be an absurd claim!, but the first to launch an online viewing room, which is significant. Could you please undo this deletion? Thank you! GALAMAC (talk) 07:23, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

GALAMAC, you know what a "viewing room" is right? Vexations (talk) 14:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Vexations, yes, it's a website, but a specific section of a website. It's a very significant development for the art industry as it as a whole has been very resistant to e-commerce and digital strategies in general. The gallery has been pioneering in this regard and it will be considered a significant part of their history. Would you be more open to the edit if I re-worded it? --GALAMAC (talk) 03:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
(talk page watcher) I can see some value to the idea of an "online viewing room" being a novel idea, but on the other hand all of its components (VR, online art galleries, the web, selling art on the web) have been around for decades. It seems to be a bit like saying flexible organic leg protections system instead of "pants". So it is unclear as to what the actual innovation is. As such, it sounds promotional in the article.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:55, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
GALAMAC, No. I have build some of these "viewing rooms" too (for a living). The only thing new about it is that we now call them this new marketing term. Yeah, I've read that "Elena Soboleva, director of online sales at David Zwirner (and a former staffer at Artsy), is quick to correct that misconception. The viewing room “lives on a website, but it’s a structure which has purpose, consistency, focus, and a whole team behind it,” she said." Oh really? A website is just an some html and a few jpegs but the viewing room part has "a whole team behind it"!? Gimme a break. Vexations (talk) 10:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Patricia Ford Crass

Vexations Thank you for your interest in the Patricia Ford Crass page. I think it is interesting when someone nominates a page for deletion when they think is not noteworthy. I have been creating Wikipedia pages for about 10 years and feel there are some reviewers that are harsher than others. I have reviewed the Wikipedia rules on NPOV and have stated on my user page a Conflict of Interest declaration. I am happy to make corrections to the page if it sounds too opinionated, but to nominate a page for deletion feels drastic! Why not communicate with the person to improve the page? Yes, the page is about my mother, but she has made many contributions to the art world in her paintings and the techniques she used. She is the granddaughter of an attorney general of California, Tirey L. Ford, and daughter of Byington Ford a California developer and early pioneer of Pebble Beach. She is also a good example of how a housewife can become a successful woman painter and established a career in a male-oriented world in the 1950’s. Greg Henderson (talk)

I think it is interesting when someone nominates a page for deletion when they think is not noteworthy. Well, it's is of the few reasons to do it. Vexations (talk) 19:36, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


I'm not sure this is a hoax. There are a few hits under her other name but i'm not confident enough to contest it. :) Praxidicae (talk) 19:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Praxidicae, t's pretty blatant if you know Annette Messager. Did you note the copy/paste from Messager's article? Vexations (talk) 19:15, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
oof! Nope. Praxidicae (talk) 19:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Praxidicae, don't feel bad: 20 other editors didn't either. Vexations (talk) 19:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Christa Membrandt deletion?

I do not understand how is Christa Membrandt (Christa Maatjens) a hoax? She was a known painter and feminist conceptual artist from Dordrecht and who had official membership in art organizations there. Her name was coined from Membrane and Rembrandt references in her work, but she is far from fictional. Please re-install her page.Zblace (talk) 06:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Zblace, you're kidding, right? If not, then why did you mix up all her biographical details with Annette Messager? Vexations (talk) 11:05, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Zblace, to clarify, (for anyone else reading along) Christa Maatjens was a real person: The English biography wasn't about her, but Annette Messager. The Dutch version of her biography still makes an unsourced and false claim that she "leverde ... werk voor het Franse paviljoen tijdens de Biënnale van Venetië in 2005" (provided work for the French pavilion of the Venice Biennale of 2005). Messager won the prize for best national pavilion, at the time, which is fairly well-documented. Vexations (talk) 11:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
I have no idea what are you talking about. Show me the edit history...I for sure did not write about Venice ever Zblace (talk) 15:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Zblace, you could ask the deleting admin, MelanieN for a WP:REFUND, I suppose, but the article was basically about someone else. What stood out for me when I first saw it was that it claimed that the subject was Christian Boltanski's partner. Now, I happen to know that his partner is Messager, so that caught my attention. Then I saw the rest of the article , and it was all about Messager, but attributed to Membrandt, so I marked it up as a hoax. But even if it were to be fixed Membrandt is unlikely to be notable by our standards, WP:NARTIST. Like I said, the Dutch version also contains blatant falsehoods, and the sourcing is a good as nonexistent. I'm not particularly eager to nominate women's biographies for deletion, we have too few,not too many, but I doubt that hers would be sustainable. Vexations (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Zblace, Here, that's your creation, isn't it? Vexations (talk) 17:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Actually that's an old version. Another user has just removed a great deal of the information that you suggested is probably false. Here is the current version: Draft:Christa Membrandt. Per the history, most of that article's content was not inserted by Zblace but by other people. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:03, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
MelanieN, I was asked Show me the edit history...I for sure did not write about Venice ever. So I showed this history, and that version contains the text In 2005, her work was featured in the French Pavilion of the Venice Biennale albeit commented out, but un-commented in a later revision [3] Re-reading the history, I suppose this all could have been a good-faith effort to create an article using another article as a template, leaving some material accidentally and compounding errors by other editors who didn't recognize the source, and didn't check the references, resulting in egregiously absurd claims about an artist who supposedly exhibited at some of the the most prestigious venues in the world (MoMA, the centre Pompidou and the Venice Biennale). Vexations (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Got it. Thanks. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:41, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
MelanieN Vexations As you can see well article was only started by me as I wanted to do this towards an anniversary of a death of an artist I knew. Most of the content was not edited by me, but thank you for personal attack that reminds me how toxic Wikipedia can feel especially with certain type of admins. Anyway I will try to contact some people that knew of her work better. Zblace (talk) 05:45, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
(talk page watcher)Zblace No need to get worked up about things. You started the draft with a lot of text from the Annette Messager article in this edit. Other editors are now cleaning up the problems that hidden text led to.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 05:54, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for educating me how should I feel. Draft was started in 2014 with only section titles visible. Fairly obvious why.Zblace (talk) 06:07, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Zblace, and it never occurred to you to fix the article? Vexations (talk) 11:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
No. Never. I forgot about it. Also I took a break from Wikipedia for more than a year.Zblace (talk) 04:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Zblace I fail to see why you would need to hide the text of another article on a new article's page. To save it for later? It's already on the wiki and readily accessible. It's a poor editing choice that led to problems later on, when another editor made the hidden material visible. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 19:15, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I have no idea why exactly...maybe I wanted to have a reference on what and how is adequate to write.Zblace (talk) 04:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 10

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List of Exhibitions

Dear Vexations, you have recently deleted the list of exhibitions by Naomi Leshem. May I ask why? Was it because it was unsourced or excessive or because it is not right to have it on a page? I am trying to improve the page (it was moved to draft) and I am also starting to work on another one where the list was unsourced (Huma Mulji - I know the Art career section must be rewriten). I am looking for the sources. My question is whether it is ok to have a list of exhibitions on the page, if the list sourced and scaled down to the most important ones. Thank you very much. Bibliof (talk) 14:42, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Bibliof, my reasoning is that unless each entry can be sourced to a review or some other form of critical comment, there is no meaningful encyclopedic purpose to try to replicate what artists are perfectly capable of maintaining themselves, on their own website, without burdening editors with keeping it up to date. We're not a webhost for CVs and resumes. I can't point you to the policy that applies directly to artists' exhibitions, but WP:NOTRESUME applies, in my opinion. I've raised the issue at the wikiproject visual arts, where there was not a lot of discussion, but the general consensus was that unsourced content can be removed, in line with WP:V that states: "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source". Vexations (talk) 14:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
Vexations I see, so only if the exhibition is notable itself according to the sources. I see the lists all over in the old pages, but not so much in the new ones. I was wondering whether it is better to look for the sources of already existing unsourced list on a page or to delete it and put a line with sourced information about the notable ones. So the latter - in most cases we can get without the list (the artist’s webpage is best for that purpose). Thank you very much. Bibliof (talk) 15:34, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
There is another point. When you list a lot of minor or local exhibitions, it implies that there are perhaps not on that manyReally major ones. If there are major prestigious well reviewed exhibitions, that's enough to show notability. Exhibitions earlier in a career do not add to the notability. If anything, they detract from it when included in the Wikipedia article. Where they belong is on the artist's cv or gallery page. DGG ( talk ) 05:54, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Library and Archives of Canada

A potentially very useful new editor! Maybe that is just my tiny sense of Canadian nationalism speaking. 19:02, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Archyvette, welcome! Seriously, we need (more) archivists and librarians. Vexations (talk) 19:12, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not sign properly, that was me above! But yes, it is a good thing.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 19:16, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm doing my best! I work primarily with women's history and social justice (in the Canadian context) records so those are where I'm focusing right now but hopefully I will be able to branch out, once I get my Wikipedia-legs. :) Archyvette (talk) 19:20, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Archyvette, I'm not formally affiliated with anything, but like ThatMontrealIP, I work on women artist's biographies quite a bit, often in deletion discussions, where sourcing is crucial and librarian's and archivists' superpowers in high demand. Have fun, Vexations (talk) 19:32, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Tagging of Empathy Aesthetics

I recently removed a speedy delete tag that you had placed on Empathy Aesthetics. I do not think that Empathy Aesthetics fits any of the speedy deletion criteria  because This appears to be a backwards copy, that is, the Wikipedia article was created before the external source, which has today's date. If you wish, you may try using the simple proposed deletion (PROD) process, or the full articles for deletion (AfD) process, instead. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:36, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

(talk page watcher) Empathy Aesthetics does look a little sketchy. Interestingly, Aesthetic Empathy seems to be a thing in Art education. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 01:48, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
ThatMontrealIP, you should take a look at the article that links to it, Narine Arakelian. Something very strange is going on between the two. It's subject ought to be notable (shows at the Venice Biennale) , but the sources are tabloid gossip and PR. Oh, and then there's Rpwearn, who I very much doubt is Richard Wearn, but rather an imposter. He has really odd working hours (See It's bizarre. Still trying to figure it out. Vexations (talk) 12:11, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
DESiegel, I am incapable of time travel. How could I have nominated something for CSD that is a copy of something that has today's date BEFORE it was published? Two days earlier? Copied from Wikipedia, as you claim. I CSD'd it on 14:22, 16 July 2020‎, the website has a date on it, Saturday, July 18, 2020 (today's date). Clearly that is not the publication date, and checking the html source code of the page confirms that. Look at the dates the images were uploaded for example, and the JavaScript that generates today's date. Or just check back tomorrow. I bet it will say Sunday July 19, 2020. Vexations (talk) 11:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Very well, Vexations I may have made an error. I admit that i didn't look at the site HTML. The timestamp of your CSD tag could have been on the 17th in some timezone, but if the date on the web page changes every day it isn't a publication date. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I will look into the web site further, and probably delete the page. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 14:33, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
On furhter inspection, the page from artdaily appeared to have a date of 24 June 2020, about a week before Empathy Aesthetics was created, so there is no reason to presume that a backwards copy was done. I have accordingly deleted the article and its talk page as a copyright infringement. Again I thank you. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 14:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Page you reviewed Luba Drozd slated to be deleted by another user

Hi Vexations, a page (Luba Drozd) you recently reviewed and helped edit was nominated for deletion by another user. Because you've been a member for 14 years with art/art history knowledge and mentioned your reservations when deleting pages about female artists, I wanted to ask for your advice to make the page acceptable by Wikipedia standards. Thank you Kiserius (talk) 15:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Kiserius, try to identify the best sources you can find, and point those out at the AfD. Go thorough the Bibliography and Press section at and pick the three that provide the most in-depth coverage. That probably takes care of the WP:GNG. The artists' notability guidelines WP:NARTIST are secondary to the GNG. The question you should try to answer, in my view, is: do we have enough verifiable information from independent, reliable sources to write an article about the subject? That's the crux of the GNG as I understand it. Vexations (talk) 01:17, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Popular castles of Scotland update

Hello, there! I thought you might want to take another look at this article in question. I added the visitor statistics that we talked about. I am hoping to get more recent figures, but that will actually cost money, and I am in negotiations to try to procure them. Also, as you can see, I re-organized the article and did some re-wording. I think that all of these changes I made will help mitigate the concerns you articulated. QuakerIlK (talk) 19:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks you for your edits on my new article on Eugène Chigot. I will attempt to find citations to attach to the museum list. The list came from the French article. The article that you have read has taken may hours to put together as it required reading and translating from French as little English source material exists on Chigot. I felt a sense of achievement to see it finally in print so thanks for visiting and taking time to contribute. I hadn't realised I couldn't use Google search for picturesDorkinglad (talk) 20:30, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Dorkinglad, the list of museum was tricky, because I didn't always know which museum was meant. Museum in town so-and-so can mean many things, so it's quite possible I took something out that can be sourced, but I did my best. You can mention me at Talk:Eugène Chigot, and I'll receive a notification. Vexations (talk) 20:54, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Strange Time

Hello dear Vexations. Ask to patrol the page Strange Time. I’ve added a number of sources, including the authoritative source of the art critic Natalia Matsenko, filled it in the literature section. Thanks! --Art of Odessa (talk) 09:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Art of Odessa, I don't know if I will, I find the whole business with Ryabchenko dubious. It's all you ever write about. And then, these online-virtual events that I see so much of these days are promoted in absurdly grandiose terms as if they were earth-shattering innovations when all they are is websites and video streams. I worked in this field in the 80s and 90s and to me this stuff looks old and derivative. Of course, what I think about the event doesn't really matter; it's what the sources say and whether they are [[WP:IS and WP:RS. A quick glance makes me doubt that. Of the sources used,,,,,,,,,,, which ones really meet those guidelines? Vexations (talk) 11:25, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
  • I turned to you for help, not for criticism. I am an art specialist and I write about Ukrainian phenomena that affect the international context. Since I previously wrote about the Ryabchenko dynasty of artists, I also decided to write about this exhibition, which the artist have organized in the quarantine. This exhibition, as the media write, is really unique and significant figures of contemporary art take part in it. All sources are independent and reputable. These are the main cultural portals, institutions and other well-known publications in Ukraine. I think that you should be interested in what is being done not only in the English-speaking environment, but also in the other part of the world. Very few people write about this and it should also be taken into account and appreciated, and not put a whole series of unreasonable warnings on the page. I think this is wrong. I hope you too. --Art of Odessa (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
    Art of Odessa, you don't need my help, I think. Good luck, Vexations (talk) 15:12, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for reviewing the page I created

Hello, im working hard trying to create articles to all the Doges of Genoa, so, i feel very thankfull for the help in reviewing the articles i created. Saumeira (talk) 19:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Saumeira, We don't thank people enough. Actually -I- don't: Thank you. I hope you enjoy the editing. Vexations (talk) 20:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Your reaction?

Hi Vexations, you contacted me about Gian Lorenzo Berti (Traversi) and I replied presto; is something now holding you back from reviewing the article? You can also review this one, if you like. :) Tshaw, --Edelseider (talk) 20:47, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Edelseider, nothing. I just forgot. I'll get to the other one soon. I've got to say, I like doing these, I enjoy digging around in online collections and your articles are properly sourced, which makes it easy. I have fond memories of visiting Strasbourg too, so that helps as well. Vexations (talk) 21:05, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
I am very glad that you like what I do here, and be assured that there will be many more articles! All the best, --Edelseider (talk) 21:07, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

You should be a detective :)

The Winnowing Fan Barnstar
You should be a detective :) Talk:Specs (creature). I hope you don't mind if I use your source to cleanup some other pages. Hope all is well with you.   // Timothy :: talk  14:08, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
go right ahead. I think they can all be deleted, likely as copyvios. Vexations (talk) 14:23, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

our new colleague

I do not think you need to be concerned that any admin here would ever consider giving him the privileges he requests. DGG ( talk ) 20:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

One year!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:31, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Good heavens!

What an interesting original document and what a strange translation. I refer to the Yaquaru, obviously. I used Google Translate, and it gives a good enough rendition. Give me time and my Collins Latin Dictionary I could render the original into better English.

I am wondering about some form of cognitive issue and wonder if we ought not to tread softly. Fiddle Faddle 17:33, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm really not sure what to think. I'm hoping for some honesty, which I've tried to exemplify myself. You know, just explain how things happened. Tony's essay puts it well, I think. It IS is fascinating book, isn't it? Vexations (talk) 18:13, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Luis Enrique Mejía Godoy

Hello, Vexations. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Luis Enrique Mejía Godoy".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply edit the submission and remove the ((db-afc)), ((db-draft)), or ((db-g13)) code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! JMHamo (talk) 08:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Jeannette Ducrocq Tanguy

Hello, Vexations. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Jeannette Ducrocq Tanguy".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply edit the submission and remove the ((db-afc)), ((db-draft)), or ((db-g13)) code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! JMHamo (talk) 09:16, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

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Waqar Zaka

Basically he has registered a business in Estonia, but he's not a residing there. See his tweet. --Saqib (talk) 18:06, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Saqib, of course. Anyone can register a business in Estonia, it's really easy: You don't need to go to Estonia in person. That creates a number of problems for the reliability of that source: a) we don't know that that registration is really by him b) if it is, he is not a reliable source, and apparently he (or his representatives have been making different claims about his date of birth. Now I don't want to focus on that date too much; 1978 is plausible, because it would make him approximately 18 years old when he released Nahin Parha mainey pura saal in 1996 (if that release date is correct). July 17, 1986 is implausible because he would have been 10 years old at the time. See, in a normal biography, we'd have a bit of a timeline, born in 1973, went to school in 1979, completed high school in 1991, went to university from 1991 and graduated with a BFA in 1995, etc. We have none of that. Love his youtube bio though: "Waqar Zaka is a famous Satellite, TV host, currently one of the most well-known Pakistani Social media content producer, Social Media Activist, a Daring Social worker (helping people in restricted areas of BURMA, SYRIA etc.), Video director, editor, concept writer and trend setter for reality shows & SELFIE VIDEO content maker in Pakistan.
He is the leading Crypto Influencer from Sub Continent As Social Media Activist, he is very famous for practically helping many, especially females in many cases from Cybercrime to harassment to acid victims to child abuse. You will not see any famous entertainer using his social media fan following from SNAPCHAT to Facebook LIVE helping people in need." Good grief. Trimming down the article to what independent, reliable sources have to say about him is probably best. Vexations (talk) 19:04, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Achara Kirk Deletion

I am really sorry to bug you here.... But let me ask one thing Sir/Madam.... How do you know that she just edits videos and has no experience in cinematography? I can provide sources which credits her as cinematographer... Rahrumi (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Rahrumi, is she credited as the director of photography on a movie? I couldn't find such a credit. She is listed on imdb for Stalker as "cinematographer", but is actually an actor (Lady in White ), not the DoP. Vexations (talk) 21:54, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Vexations I've given a link on the discussion page of deleting the article... Please look in the description of the video it is shot by the subject. I am not making absurd class Sir/Madam

Rahrumi (talk) 04:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Sir/Madam, you do get angry on seeing the comment that you didn't do background research.... Similarly if information I Provided was right and I've sources as well as the video to it... Is it not the basic human nature of getting frustration when you call the claims are absurd. Please do think Sir/Madam. I mean nothing bad, I know Wikipedia's Principles... I'll not violate them... It's just that the subject doesn't have much sources

Rahrumi (talk) 05:04, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Vexations Sir/Madam... This the link... Check in the description... You need not watch the video .. She has the credit for Cinematography Rahrumi (talk) 05:07, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

She has acted(she has a cameo) and shot it too. She is not the primary character... Rahrumi (talk) 05:12, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Talk page stalker here. Rahrumi, you have been making demands of other editors to do research on Kirk. It's the job of the creating editor to state why their subject is notable and to provide the reliable sources to verify those claims. What are "reliable sources"? This may help: WP:SOURCES. Why do we say that youtube is not reliable? You might find WP:RSP helpful as it explains why not.Blue Riband► 02:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Cher Skoubo

Thanks for your assistance. I have a question. You marked a failed reference (shown below). I cited two references so that it would cover location as well as the sculptor. On the failed reference they do not list the sculptors but have better photos and it helps to confirm the location. Is this not acceptable? Trying to do the right thing. Thanks for your help!

Regarding Evangelos William Frudakis page:

EvAngelos William Frudakis (May 13, 1921 - February 16, 2019) was an American classical sculptor. He is known for his public commissions, including the national monuments The Signer[1][failed verification] [5] in Independence Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;


Cher Skoubo let's discuss how to improve EvAngelos William Frudakis on the article's talk page: Talk:EvAngelos_William_Frudakis. But very quickly; if the article says: He is known for his public commissions, including the national monuments The Signer and the cited source does not mention Frudakis as the creator, that's a failed verification, and if it also doesn't say that the work is a national monument that's a problem, and finally if the source also doesn't show that he is known for that work, then the source doesn't really support the claim at all. A claim it could support would be "The Signer, based on George Clymer, was presented by the Independence Hall Association for Philadelphia’s Tercentenary in 1982. It is located in the Signer's garden of the Independence National Historical Park at the corner of 5th and Chestnut St. in Philadelphia"


O.K. Thanks, that makes sense. Earlier today I corrected the source pointing it to a page that lists him as the sculptor. Do you want me to paste new content and coding on the talk page for review? It seems that you want to see it first but I want to be certain that I am putting it in the right location for you. Thanks! Cher Skoubo (talk) 04:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC)


Two others

Dear Vexations, these page creations haven't been reviewed yet:

Thank you and good evening (or morning), --Edelseider (talk) 16:35, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Will you review these two articles if you have a moment? I think I may soon ask for reviewer rights, so that I dont have to bother people, or ask. :) --Edelseider (talk) 18:25, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Edelseider, you could ask for WP:Autopatrolled at WP:PERM. New page reviewer or patroller would let you review, but one shouldn't patrol one's own articles, I think. I have the patroller user right, but not autopatrolled ( I never bothered to ask, and I don't want to accidentally review articles when I move a draft for example). Vexations (talk) 19:07, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Vexations. I think I will request Autopatrolled shortly, maybe after my next three articles, so as to have a supply.
Now, I am sorry to insist, but can you please review (as in tagging with "page reviewed") the two articles mentioned above? It is needed for the Google indexation.
All the best, --Edelseider (talk) 05:27, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
Edelseider,  Done Vexations (talk) 12:41, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Fresson Process

Hello Vexations, I inform you that I wrote for French Wikipedia a notice about Theodore-Henri Fresson, as well as a notice concerning the Fresson Process. Best regards, --Ctruongngoc (talk) 12:34, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Ctruongngoc, great, what a fun subject! Vexations (talk) 12:41, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Please help draft:noam shalev — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:50, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

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