This biographical article uses the pronouns she/her/hers.

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Chevalier_d'Eon was copied or moved into Transgender history. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Just removed the gendered pronouns that had crept in in recent edits: one reference to the Chevalier as "him" in the revision of 12:05 2 March 2018 by 11614soup; and two references to d'Éon as "she" in the revision of 11:01 9 August 2018 by 37.205.58.146, an IP that has many warnings on its talk page about vandalism-- As such, I've also popped a [citation needed] on their edit about there being "little evidence to support" the story. James Hyett (talk) 00:21, 18 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted to use correct pronouns again. (Redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.30.30.243 (talk) 22:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source that shows the person preferred "she/her" pronouns? ... discospinster _talk 22:57, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's much discussion and an RfC on this page where the final sentence of the close is "The current article does not use pronouns, and that is good". A new discussion would need to be had to determine if consensus has changed, but the personal attacks and battleground attitude displayed by the IP need to be checked at the door.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 23:03, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence is in her own words. She authored an autobiography, which was unfinished, but which is referenced in the book "Monsieur d'Eon is a Woman" by Dr. Gary Kates. In her autobiography she expressly claimed to be a woman. This was one of the last things she wrong before her death, making her gender self ID clear. Given that, the use of female pronouns is the only way for this article to be in keeping with the MOS:GENDERID. Cavegirlsmash (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry last things she "wrote" before her death. Cavegirlsmash (talk) 20:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again, not all women use she/her pronouns, and if we are going to apply 21st-century gender conceptions in this article then that has to be taken into consideration. ... discospinster _talk 19:56, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

She used she/her pronouns for herself in her own writings. She/her pronouns were used for her by everyone who knew her in life prior to the death and the revelation of her genitals. She/her pronouns are mandated by MOS Gender Identity. Her last known identity, legally, publicly, and personally, was female. By that definition, her pronouns in English are she/her. Cavegirlsmash (talk) 02:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with using she/her pronouns for d'Eon. She used She/her pronouns for herself, and it is just basic respect to use the correct pronouns for someone, even if that someone is long dead. BlueJadeStorm (talk) 01:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We don't know Eon's thoughts but we do know that a desire to return to France was an overriding consideration, and in order to achieve that, as described in the article, Eon was "made to resume the costume of that sex", a condition to which Eon "submitted". But in protest to that, Eon, despite being dressed in gowns and ruffles, combined the feminine dress with the roughneck attitude and manner of speech of a "grenadier". This is not someone I would call transgender, but then, what I would call Eon has absolutely no relevance here. What is relevant, is what the reliable sources say, and since there isn't a clear majority consensus, the current no-pronoun approach is the best one available to us, even if it fails to satisfy those who prefer masculine pronouns or feminine pronouns. Mathglot (talk) 06:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Author Edna Nixon in her biography of d'Eon on page 178-179 when examining the text of the order, asserts the phrasing of "as was previously made necessary through her service to the late King" as "[laying] the responsibility for her wearing male garments on Louis XV". In this regard the wording of the article is perhaps not matching to the order itself. Relm (talk) 19:54, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lede is ambiguous as to their biological sex, even though the main body specifies that they had '"male organs in every respect perfectly formed", while at the same time displaying feminine characteristics.' This strongly suggests these "androgynous physical characteristics" were mainly male (certainly in the sense that most readers will perceive the issue). If their biological sex-characteristics is relevcant enough to mention in the lede at all, wouldn't it be better to be less ambiguous in the wording? Ornilnas (talk) 01:37, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RaphaelQS added this text in July:

After returning to England later in life, d'Éon successfully petitioned the English courts to be legally recognized as a woman, which is seen as one of the earliest instances of legal recognition of a gender transition.

This doesn't seem to be sourced or mentioned in the body of the article. RaphaelQS, do you have a source for this? (I partly ask because, if it's true, it seems evidence that d'Eon did identify as a woman, rather than dressing as a woman purely to satisfy King Louis.) TSP (talk) 02:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is from the British Museum:

Having been officially designated a woman by both the French and English courts, the sitter returned to France in 1777 and - after considerable protest - d'Eon was resigned to Louis XVI's stipulation that at all times thereafter they dress in female costume. Despite earlier prints showing the Chevalier in female dress, this appears to be the first indisputable record of d'Eon in female clothing. This change led to a shift in attitude from the press and printmakers. D'Eon was now regarded as a heroine, a woman whose patriotic fervour had inspired her to disguise herself in order to fight for her country. D'Eon was compared to Minerva (see 1902,1011.7149 for an example of this iconography in an English print), to an Amazon and to Joan of Arc. Indeed, the autobiography written at the end of d'Eon's life, but not published until 2001, was titled "La Pucelle de Tonnerre" in a direct homage to Joan ('la Pucelle'). For the autobiography, see "The Maiden of Tonnerre", Johns Hopkins University Press, 2001.

(Emphasis mine). --RaphaelQS (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's quite a long way off the statement in the article, though? It doesn't specify that this recognition took place after d'Eon's return to England in 1786 (given that d'Eon was also in England 1763-77); or that d'Eon petitioned for this; and it's ambiguous whether this refers to the English courts - i.e. the legal system - or the English court - i.e. royalty. Given that the French recognition was by the French court, logic would actually suggest the latter; and a more likely time for it would be before 1777, when d'Eon was at the English royal court. TSP (talk) 11:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RaphaelQS: I've removed this statement, I'm afraid. I'd love it to be true, but you can't use a source as vague as the one you provided to source the extremely specific statement in the article. TSP (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If someone could please provide a reliable source that D'Eon preferred feminine pronouns, or that D'Eon was referred to using feminine pronouns by contemporaries at the time, it would make things a whole lot easier. Otherwise, avoiding pronouns altogether, as the article currently does, is the better option. ... discospinster _talk 00:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really see the need to move away from the current standard, there is no benefit to adding pronoun's where they would barely provide brevity and increase confusion. This was discussed in RfC too. See the header. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 16:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of examples of d'Eon's contemporaries using she/her pronouns for her. Including her brother in law: https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-30-02-0502 She also used she/her pronouns for herself when writing in third person: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_D-1-268-272 Not to start the pronoun wars again but you did ask. AmphibiousThing (talk) 11:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a letter from her (d'Eon's) brother-in-law, using female pronouns for her in 1778, in a letter to Benjamin Franklin.

https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-30-02-0502#BNFN-01-30-02-0502-fn-0003

The time for changing her pronouns to she/her, which she used (in both French and English) from 1777 to her death, is long overdue. 2603:6081:6F00:3A50:0:0:0:81 (talk) 23:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Initially I reverted a change regarding the pronouns used in this article but I sense I've made a mistake here. I do agree and think, considering the use of she/her for her by her contemporaries (as reported in these sources, and the sources saying she lived as a woman, it might be time to use those gendered pronouns for d'Eon. LemurLiterature (talk) 00:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not speak French and can not track down the source, but Edna Nixon's biography quotes a public appeal they made in 1778 on page 208-209. The author states the purpose was as an appeal to women to bolster her case, and in it Chevalier uses third person through much of it stating:

"After having been all my life an honest man, zealous citizen, and brave soldier I now triumph as a woman, one who may be cited among many of her kind as having proved that the qualities and virtues of which men are so proud have not been denied our sex.... I have felt outraged that a certain theatrical boaster has not dared to look the Chevalier D'eon in the face, he a plebian who was occupied in making clocks chime while all Europe resounded with my warlike and political exploits. He tried by an ignoble trick to rob me of the esteem which is the consolation of my existence. I oppose him and make mock of his futile anger. He is Thersites who should be whipped for his insolence in attacking people who are of far greater worth than himself and whom he should respect. I denounce him and delilver him up to the women of my century for having conspired to acquire credit at the expense of a woman, to get rich on her honour, and to avenge his frustrations by crushing one whose dearest wish is to see the triumph of her sisters."

Petit-Montreuil-les-Versailles,

Monday, Day of Purification, 1778.

Archives des Ministere des Affaires Estrangeres

Provided this can be verified it makes clear that she used female pronouns for herself. Given that Wikipedia does not assign pronouns off of birth sex (though d'Eon successfully petitioned two governments to be recognized as AFAB - remarkable for the time) but rather self ID, the article should reflect the pronouns used by the subject rather than engage in speculative neutrality. Relm (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is from Appel à mes Contemporaines.

The issue here is translation. While I don’t speak French I do know some basics. In French son/sa is gendered in a different way how his/her is gendered in English. In this letter the choice to use "her" is a choice made by the translator.

That being said d’Eon does use "elle" for herself in this letter which is equivalent to “she”. She also refers to herself throughout as a “femme” (woman) and signs it in the feminine “La Chevaliere d’Eon”. So the choice to use “her” in translation makes sense as it’s keeping with how d’Eon is gendering herself.

D’Eon also uses she/her pronouns for herself in English. Her brother-in-law Thomas O'Gorman uses she/her pronouns for her in English. In French her cousins call her "chère cousine", O'Gorman calls her "ma chère soeur" and her mother calls her "ma chère fille". There is honestly so much evidence that d’Eon, her friends, family and many others all used feminine language for her in both French and English. AmphibiousThing2 (talk) 07:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The attempt to modernise, while understandable is serves only to editorialise what is a balanced historically written article. The discussion of d'Éon's life here is comprehensive and well sourced.Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In light of the texts brought forward by myself [here] and verified by @AmphibiousThing2 for the French [here] to show that d'Eon self identified as a woman (quite adamantly, frankly). There was also a link to an example of d'Eon using feminine pronouns for themselves in English, but the BritishMuseum link for it has since died. D'Eon's brother likewise used female pronouns in English to refer to her [here].

I think this change is long overdue, but since I expect it to be met with controversy I am front-loading my argument.

One can find the original 2014 RfC [here]

The summary for the RfC is as follows:

NAC: There is no consensus as to whether to support or oppose strict application of the MOS rule on gender identity: "An exception to this is made for terms relating to gender. In such cases, we favor self-designation, even when source usage would indicate otherwise. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." There is what appears to be consensus that this is an edge case, exceptional in multiple respects. Since there is no consensus to override the MOS, and the MOS does not refer to edge cases, applying the MOS means that we should refer to her as female, her gender identity at the time of her death (regardless of her anatomical gender). The current article does not use pronouns, and that is good.

— Robert McClenon, 9 November 2014.

Emphasis mine. The arguments presented at the time in favor of not applying the MOS rule are as follows:

1. Several users suggested using male pronouns for d'Eon prior to her transition, then use female. This is expressly forbidden as per WP:GENDERID - in particular the section on retroactivity - and MOS:IDENTITY. Additionally, no weight is given to legal recognition for name or gender affirming surgeries. Notably these also mention that given it is clear d'Eon is primarily known by the masculine form of their name, that they qualify for it to still be listed - See WP:GENDERID's 'Common Name' section for more.

2. Several users conflated Sex and Gender. D'Eon is - as best as I understand all of the evidence - still of unclear sex. There are arguments for and against her being biologically male, female, or intersex. Regardless of consensus or lack of consensus for any of these, it does not impact d'Eon's gender identity. Other users likewise suggested that given Chevaliere d'Eon's notability coming from their having lived as both a male and female, that it may confuse the reader to use feminine pronouns throughout. The Retroactivity section of GENDERID states

"For people who are unfamiliar with them, gender and transgender issues can be confusing, but with clear drafting (as suggested by MOS:IDENTITY), articles can clear up such confusion. Where necessary, an article can clarify how the person presented at whatever stage of life the article is discussing.

Some readers would be confused to see the same person referred to by two different pronouns (they might not even realize the same person was being referred to at first), and other readers would be confused and/or offended to see a transgender person being misgendered."

This clearly shows that it is our job as editors to prevent such confusion, but only within the framework of referring to them appropriately by their proper pronouns.

(As a side note to #2: I would appreciate a discussion about how much weight the article gives the coroners report compared to earlier 'gender confirmations' conducted during d'Eon's time in England, or the private letter between d'Eon and Madame de Courcelle - d'Eon's close life long friend and potential lover who could be understood as explicitly stating that they had seen d'Eon's genitals first hand and rebuked a man for claiming d'Eon was biologically male.)

3. The most comprehensive arguments were made from those suggesting that the majority of sources referred to d'Eon with male pronouns, or as a 'transvestite' and therefore the article should reflect this. The first sentence of the MOS:GENDERID states: "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." and there is no justification I can see to overrule this here when the evidence is clear. There are cases where the evidence is unclear such as Marsha Johnson where a similar MOS exception is used as d'Eon to avoid pronouns entirely (despite most sources referring to Johnson as a transwoman with she/her pronouns) due to there being a lack of clarity on their self identification due to - as I understand the talk page discussion - referring to themselves differently according to different people of different relation to Marsha. D'Eon does not fit this narrow room for argument, as their latest gender identity and pronouns seem clear. D'Eon's distaste for female clothes in favor of her military uniform is not sufficient evidence to overrule gender identity.

4. Most importantly regarding the 2014 RfC... there was no engagement with the source material. The RfC primarily concerned itself with discussing it from a zoomed out lense from the perspective of d'Eon being beyond our modern conception of transgender due to being removed from us by two centuries - but failed to critically examine any source texts from d'Eon or those from her time living as a woman. Since the 2014 RfC, most discussions have centered on this gap of what d'Eon self identified as. Most remarks made since the RfC against female pronouns have said that evidence of self referential pronouns would be sufficient, with a slight majority saying that they believed that even without a clear example of self-referential pronouns in writing from d'Eon that the evidence was clear to employ female pronouns for her.

Finally to conclude I believe it is important to note that at the time of the original RfC, transgender individuals were not widely accepted to the level of today. 'Transvestite' or other words which have fallen out of favor over the past decade were commonly employed to pathologize, diminish, or erase transgender individuals throughout history and the present. Though Wikipedia had already written the original versions of MOS:IDENTITY and GENDERID, they have since become more fleshed out due to arguments elsewhere requiring them to. Wikipedia was only a year removed from the Chelsea Manning controversy which prompted those policies. During the 2014 RfC a much more impactful debate was occurring across Wikipedia, with the gamergate sanctions WP:GS/GG coming down after almost the entirety of the 2014 RfC was conducted but prior to it's closure two weeks later. I bring this up not to browbeat those who may oppose this edit, but rather to further justify why the 2014 RfC is outdated, and the recent conversations are sufficient to change the page. Given all of the above, as well as several discussions which lead to this outcome but have not enacted it yet, I am making this change. Relm (talk) 15:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is not so much dated terminology, but what reliable sources say, and what they said at the time. Since there has been addition of these sources, I would support changing the pronouns to "she/her". ... discospinster _talk 16:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have made an attempt at moving the page and doing the cleanup. I would greatly appreciate if someone took a second look to make sure I did it right since this is my first attempt at moving a page. Relm (talk) 16:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My issue is a different one. This is a historical figure who identified with different pronouns at different times in their life. Wikipedia guidelines rightfully prefer the last reliable self-ID but in a historical account in which a substantial fraction of the notable coverage is split across pronouns/identities, I am struggling to see the a single pronoun covering it in a way that is encyclopaedic. I think it's great that a more in depth examination of the sources is being used to add to this article but I am concerned to pronoun change makes d'Eon's identity less clear not more. For reference I support the page move, that seems like a straight forwardly positive reorganisation. Antisymmetricnoise (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the issue you bring up is accurate. Though the pronouns have been changed in accordance with policy, also mentioned in the MOS is that it is still the duty of editors to not confuse the reader.

While reading a few sources and books on d'Eon it stood out to me that the article is severely lacking in detail on their life as a woman as well as their time in England prior to returning to France. As noted above I also think there is perhaps too much emphasis on the coroners report (while cleaning up I noticed various other pages which reference Chevalier d'Eon citing that coroners report to mean radically different things) when there was - as I understand it - a heavy implication that an inspection occured prior to d'Eon's return to france, as well as a suggestion by a close friend with potentially intimate (in both senses of the word) knowledge that they had always been female. Obviously if no reliable sources report on such things, it is OR and does not belong.

Overall my thoughts on improving the page to better help on this is found in these three points:

1. A lot of nuanced detail which would help readers understand the specific events (namely their service in Russia, their time in England, the negotiation process to return to France, and her relations to others and their reactions to her return as a woman) surrounding the time they moved from presenting publicly as a man to a woman is missing from the article.

2. There is no definitive section surrounding d'Eon's gender expression and biological sex, and perhaps for d'Eon it is warranted given the nuances of when and how and what they preferred to wear.

3. There is perhaps enough research and articles done which cover d'Eon as a figure in media that the section on their legacy and media depictions could be expanded.

If no one else takes it up I'll probably make it my pet project for the rest of the year. Relm (talk) 00:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]